tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post732221212006113029..comments2023-06-19T09:18:34.114-07:00Comments on Tiger Beatdown: Our House Is A Very Very Very Fine House, Unless You Smear Feces All Over It: Some Notes on Shakesville and Feminist BloggingSadyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12163678207182481274noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-53091089099383252192009-06-18T11:59:02.171-07:002009-06-18T11:59:02.171-07:00I came here by way of the Dworkin post, via Harpyn...I came here by way of the Dworkin post, via Harpyness, not this one, but that one's closed--anyway, wow. Great blog! Love the caps!x. trapnelhttp://booksdofurnisharoom.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-80113184664452990222009-06-16T13:12:41.159-07:002009-06-16T13:12:41.159-07:00@Folks: I think the problem is that Shakesville tr...@Folks: I think the problem is that Shakesville traffics in incredibly complex analysis of how oppressions intersect, and tries to create a safe space for everybody, and it's super-hard to keep all that in mind when creating a comment policy - or, for that matter, leaving comments! So often people won't know stuff is verboten until it pops up and they have to moderate it and they're like, "damn, that's fucked-up." Also, the treating of Melissa as if she's boundless and obligated to do each and every little thing her commenters want. I, frankly, think the uproar over the foie gras joke was RIDONKULOUS and lacked all understanding of context and proportion. But, yeah: the commenters do a decent job of calling each other out, I think.Sadyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12163678207182481274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-45945000207083829182009-06-12T13:35:14.822-07:002009-06-12T13:35:14.822-07:00You are so f-ing funny! SO! The exclamation points...You are so f-ing funny! SO! The exclamation points and colons are NOT misplaced. They *mean* something! Please come to WordPress so that I can stalk you with "Blog Surfer." <br /><br />In the meantime, I'm way into "Creating New Values" amongst feminists by imploring others to be nicer to each other. Like "please say it nicely the first time." And remaining open to good faith clarifications, re-interpretations, and forgiveness. <br /><br />At the same time, and as a Separtist, I do not deal with Mean People. That's not my job. I am firmly committed to civil interactions and aggreeing-to-disagree. But if people wanna keep escalating the conversation, I WALK. <br />So I like your advice to Ms. McEwan. THROW the MEAN PEOPLE OUT. Point out their rude tone, unecessary hyperbole, or antagonistic ways; ask them to change; and then say Bye-Bye! <br />Amen, Tiger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-63257515350654353052009-06-11T15:23:46.359-07:002009-06-11T15:23:46.359-07:00Here's what I don't quite get. Was The Bi...Here's what I don't quite get. Was The Big Problem with the Shakespeare's Sister blog really that too few people were calling each other out for bad behavior? Of all the blogs I read at all regularly, I'd say that's the one where bad behavior is most assiduously policed. In fact, you can be well-meaning and get scorched in comments for how you express yourself; the standard is _really_ high and the trust factor for newbies is _really_ low. So I've been a bit at a loss in trying to figure out what went so wrong, why there was a need for a big pronouncement, and why there seems to be so much lasting, rankling pain all around.FlipYrWhignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-37887416665984549622009-06-11T14:37:14.724-07:002009-06-11T14:37:14.724-07:00I love you too, Sady.
But I'm done with Shake...I love you too, Sady. <br />But I'm done with Shakesville.<br />I'm a regular commenter there under a different pseudonym. They probably won't even notice I'm gone.<br />YOU on the other hand. You're totally my new favorite thing. *Groucho Marx eyebrow waggle*snobographerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11874569135368534339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-61588217721388792612009-06-11T13:39:53.035-07:002009-06-11T13:39:53.035-07:00Thanks for this, Sady. I don't have many words...Thanks for this, Sady. I don't have many words today, but thanks.SKMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15045152691400268599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-974864634947956462009-06-11T08:05:55.086-07:002009-06-11T08:05:55.086-07:00Hi Sady,
I've been lurking around the feminis...Hi Sady,<br /><br />I've been lurking around the feminist blogosphere for a few months and found Shakesville and through them, you, not only well-written, funny, smart and SO enlightening, I also find both sites necessary to getting through some shit in my life.<br />That's why, when Shakespeare's Sister shut down last week, I was pretty freaked out and on reading up on the comment threads yesterday, I was completely saddened and angry on behalf of Melissa McEwan and her moderators, at everything that happened. I'm glad you gave us your take on it and I agree with you 100%. Here's hoping this leads to more stringent banning of trolls and bad-day-I-want-you-to-write-about-X dickheads of all genders and groups. I know those piss the hell out of me when I read comment threads and I'm glad that both Shapely Prose and Feministe have fairly quick fingers on deleting posts or saving them for troll-bashing polls. <br />What the world needs is more Melissa McEwan, and more Sady, for sure. Thank you for all your hard work!<br />V (sorry for the anonymous tag, I suck a little bit at the internets and don't want to reveal my real name)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-62682069709185591272009-06-11T07:10:49.777-07:002009-06-11T07:10:49.777-07:00@Chelsea: Yay! And, again: yay! Also: LADY, WHY DO...@Chelsea: Yay! And, again: yay! Also: LADY, WHY DON'T YOU E-MAIL MEEEEEEEEEEEE. It is a sadness in my life. <br /><br />@All, about The Apostate's blog entry: The blog entry itself, I read (I read her blog fairly regularly, in fact), and I agree with her about the dysfunction that can adhere to Internet "communities." Yet: I went to Antioch, which was very into radical "community," and community responsibility, and I've been involved in several other "communities" in the real world (haven't we all?) with a strong identification as such, and basically, whenever you have people identifying around a certain place with a certain set of principles, there WILL BE DRAMA. Don't know why. Just know that it's inevitable. <br /><br />The comments? Yikes. They're an example of the problem I was trying to talk about here: people talking about Melissa, in very intimate, very insulting terms that they seem to take for granted they have the right to use. I think she's compared to someone's abusive mom, at some point? (Me, I tune out whenever a woman in a position of authority is compared to Mom, because you know that, whatever comes next, it ain't gonna be good.) <br /><br />Also, writing is her "hobby" and people don't know why she asks them to donate to the site or why she treats it like a "job?" I mean, fuck you people. There's this gross thing that people do, when they're envious of someone's talent or just take it for granted, wherein they assume that because writing (or playing music, or whatever) is "fun," it's not really a job and people shouldn't be compensated for it. And, again, I have no better phrase, so I'll reel this one out again: FUCK YOU. YOU try maintaining a blog that puts out at least twelve posts a day, AND engaging with/moderating comment threads that are rarely shorter than 20 comments, AND researching your own shit, AND writing your own shit (which is frequently long, ideologically complex, and always - ALWAYS - well-written; she doesn't just poop these posts out), AND meeting deadlines for your other assignments. Oh, and also? Looking for new voices, connecting with all of the people who want to talk to you personally (in my interactions with Melissa McEwan, she's always responded promptly and as if I were the only person to e-mail her that day, which I KNOW is not the case), and generally creating community and making Shakesville the functional meeting-place and idea-market that it is. Of course it's fucking work. And, you know? If you value it, and you can spare the cash? She should be compensated for it. <br /><br />I mean. It's The Apostate's space, and she can do what she wants there. That's the point. But, based on the comments I've deleted thus far, I can tell you I have zero tolerance for people who benefit from McEwan's work turning around to deride her work, or say that she should be working harder. And LESS THAN ZERO tolerance for people discussing her personality or her failings or her whatever (gasp! Do you mean to tell me she is human and imperfect? I will never believe this! Never!) as if she's a character on a TV show, or as if they think she won't eventually read the comments on a blog post that CONTAINS HER NAME, SEVERAL TIMES. It's so passive-aggressive and shitty, I can't stand it. And I'm a mean little shit, when it comes to people whose work I don't like. I just think this cause - this "feminism" thing we all like so much - is too valuable for us to be attacking our own. PARTICULARLY when they've done so much work to make the current movement what it is.Sadyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12163678207182481274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-71433182259708406612009-06-11T01:37:52.917-07:002009-06-11T01:37:52.917-07:00This was a great analysis of some of the issues th...This was a great analysis of some of the issues that are going on. I've definitely been worrying about and mourning what's going on over there and I feel so bad for Melissa. I'm also graduating soon with a writing degree and kind of scared of the prospect of actually having to make a living in the big, bad world, so I also appreciate your thoughts on the (mostly?) unconscious bias of the publishing world in general. ALSO THANKS FOR THE CAPSLOCK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-66741731429940025192009-06-10T22:33:01.990-07:002009-06-10T22:33:01.990-07:00Last night, in the middle of a haze of sadness, pa...Last night, in the middle of a haze of sadness, pain, and sinus medication, I tried to craft a blog post about how upset Liss being hurt made me.<br />You really hit it on the head, though. <br /><br />I really appreciate that you wrote this post. I think that maybe Liss is a little more patient and less prone to righteous anger and indignation than you and I, and so is more likely to walk away herself instead of sending others away, but I wish she could. I wish that she could bring herself to show those assholes the door instead of endlessly, and out of compassion, trying to explain to them how to not be assholes. <br /> Mostly, I wish noone ever tried to hurt her in the first place.<br /><br />But I'm left at loose ends. Obviously, bad people are going to continue to exist. Even among those we thought were our advocates.The Magnetic Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18058420942795743639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-63709417170263678042009-06-10T21:50:38.224-07:002009-06-10T21:50:38.224-07:00As always, great post Sady. I hadn't really vi...As always, great post Sady. I hadn't really visited Shakesville, so I had to check it out after reading this. I totally agree with you - if someone posts some shizzle on my blog, it's getting deleted post-haste because mine is a realm of sparkles and chuckles and pictures of kittens. <br /><br />BUT after checking out Shakesville, I have to medium-roll-with Apostate's assessment of the situation. However, I intend to roll more politely and respectfully and whatnot because far be it from meeeee to call anyone else excessively dramatical. I read over many of the comment threads that were deemed offending or upsetting, and what I saw was someone saying something thoughtless, getting called out, and almost immediately offering a heartfelt, public apology. <br /><br />I think that by offering a public place for discourse, this sort of thing is bound to happen, especially when there is a large and diverse readership (which is like, yay Shakesville! for appealing to many and bringing debate to the table!) and look! We have many admissions of poopishness and generally sincere apologies (at least from what I read, which was what the Shakesville moderators had linked from the most recent post), which is, IMO, A Good Thing. Like, "Hm, I been bad and I am sorry fer it. And I have learned something and so have other posters." I like that. I think it's a learning experience for the writers, commenters, and lurkers alike. <br /><br />Anyhoo, Sady, I think your advice at the end of this post where you instruct Melissa to kick people out if they don't know how to act is spot on. Delete them, block them, or eviscerate them with scalding wit a la Tiger Beatdown, but abandon a most excellent and necessary feminist bloggy endeavor that provides an opportunity for shared learning because some folks don't know how to act? No, please!jeanniehttp://jeannie-baby.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-12959107447095907062009-06-10T20:58:31.071-07:002009-06-10T20:58:31.071-07:00hey lovely lady,
I been lurkin', and just want...hey lovely lady,<br />I been lurkin', and just wanted to chime in to say I love, love love your voice. keep it coming, sister.tenth musenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-60948087717070261842009-06-10T20:51:28.958-07:002009-06-10T20:51:28.958-07:00@Anon--That post on The Apostate makes an argument...@Anon--That post on The Apostate makes an argument that is totally out of sync with what Sady is trying to do here (not to mention sort of off-topic, since The Apostate is talking about the hazards of online communities in general and Sady is addressing the hazards of Writing While Female in any genre and why blogging has been so important in getting voices out that wouldn't otherwise be heard if simply left up to modern publishing--wow this parenthesis is out of control), and I question the appropriateness of advertising it in comments. <br /><br />@Sady--I've been loving your blog for the past few weeks! I think it's great that you're showing your support for Liss here and contextualizing the importance of what feminist bloggers are doingOther Ashleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-5229795621186631602009-06-10T17:58:54.411-07:002009-06-10T17:58:54.411-07:00Another Shakesville refugee dropping in to say tha...Another Shakesville refugee dropping in to say thank you for this post.<br /><br />And for your blog! I actually found you before Melissa linked to you, I forget how exactly, but I was so delighted when she did, because, as you said, it meant you were getting NOTICED.<br /><br />And I am not saying you OWE this to me or any reader, but I will say that the sort of thing that keeps me coming around are sentences like this:<br /><br /><i>This weekend, I was having dinner with a lady, who made the (now by no means unfamiliar) point that many women get ahead in the writing world (and the music world, and many "creative" fields) by flirting or sleeping with dudes who have established themselves therein, and that there's an economy of dudes who get laid by kind-of-sort-of promising career assistance and girls who end up sleeping with dudes for reasons only somewhat related to the pure and impersonal desire to handle that dude's junk.</i><br /><br />You have a higher-than-usual incidence of thought-provoking sentences with really funny payoffs like that one, and when I find myself pasting them into IM windows so that I can share the lulz, it means your blog is a keeper.Julian Griffithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08889206883385015823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-40525678535031805472009-06-10T16:43:23.510-07:002009-06-10T16:43:23.510-07:00Not really. The Apostate's 'thoughts' ...Not really. The Apostate's 'thoughts' in a nutshell: THE DRAMA! IT BURNS.<br /><br /><br />While I think some of the comments have been in good taste and faith, most have been "lol look at how upset all the cultist over there are. lololol"<br /><br /><br />So, not worth it imho.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-75246213222168947352009-06-10T14:58:18.967-07:002009-06-10T14:58:18.967-07:00Couldn't stay away -
Yes, yes, yes and Fuck y...Couldn't stay away -<br /><br />Yes, yes, yes and Fuck yes!SargassoSeanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-65392269536199266972009-06-10T14:55:37.016-07:002009-06-10T14:55:37.016-07:00Thanks Sady! This is a wonderful, wonderful post.Thanks Sady! This is a wonderful, wonderful post.rrphttp://postdiluvial.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-16604481617061676992009-06-10T14:48:42.424-07:002009-06-10T14:48:42.424-07:00Yeah, I've been pretty appalled by the ridicul...Yeah, I've been pretty appalled by the ridiculosity of some of the comments at Shakesville over the past few weeks. People seem to be failing to apply any kind of common sense before posting. I'm glad there will be increased banning in the coming time period.<br /><br />Also, can I just make this all about me for a second and tell you that I got a job, even though we're not actually friends in real life and I'm just some girl who's been commenting on your blog for the past couple months? Because I did and everyone I work with and for is a woman, and even there, when I went in for an interview a man came in who sort of almost works with the company in a peripheral way and he interrupted my interview and instantly dominated the conversation (talking about some random ass-shit. I mean, literally, he was talking about feces) for like 20 minutes. It was upsetting.<br /><br />But yeah, I have a job! So now I am a paid professional artist for really reals!<br /><br />Also I love your writing still. I haven't stopped.<br /><br /><3ChexChelseaWantsOutnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-50985442770795637782009-06-10T14:31:54.595-07:002009-06-10T14:31:54.595-07:00The upside of the down at shakesville; the link to...The upside of the down at shakesville; the link to here! WOW! (amish451)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-79549346623124130782009-06-10T14:30:14.626-07:002009-06-10T14:30:14.626-07:00I'm not really familiar with the blog in quest...I'm not really familiar with the blog in question, but I can offer this: If the comments on your blog make it less fun for you to write said blog? Turn them off.<br /><br />I read a number of successful and interesting blogs that do not allow comments, and the lack of comments hasn't affected my enjoyment in the least.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09965132278608642433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-59811816702235810112009-06-10T14:28:16.874-07:002009-06-10T14:28:16.874-07:00Not really familiar with the blog in question, but...Not really familiar with the blog in question, but I'll offer this: If the comments on your blog make it less fun to write said blog? Turn them off.<br /><br />There are many very successful and interesting blogs that I read that don't allow commenting. This hasn't affected my enjoyment of them in the least.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09965132278608642433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-71219956197889698172009-06-10T13:59:41.441-07:002009-06-10T13:59:41.441-07:00Been lurking for a few weeks, now - I think I link...Been lurking for a few weeks, now - I think I linked in from Shakesville. <br />Y'r awesome. That's all I have to say. <3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-36032569384793436602009-06-10T13:35:32.211-07:002009-06-10T13:35:32.211-07:00Another linked-in from Shakesville, and I LOVED YO...Another linked-in from Shakesville, and I LOVED YOUR POST!!!1!!11!!!!!?!!!1!! <br /><br />Great points here, and I love how you've tied it in with The Bigger Issues At Hand.<br /><br />Thank-you.Alexandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10311927734618225897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-47976016194400859702009-06-10T12:44:14.754-07:002009-06-10T12:44:14.754-07:00Great post.Great post.Lady Vengeancenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-31509595560996224652009-06-10T12:28:20.421-07:002009-06-10T12:28:20.421-07:00More thoughts from Shakesville readers over at The...More thoughts from Shakesville readers over at The Apostate's blog! I think it's worth checking out another different perspective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com