tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post1423493440905187981..comments2023-06-19T09:18:34.114-07:00Comments on Tiger Beatdown: Dollhouse, Joss Whedon, and the Strange and Difficult Path of Feminist Dudes: Some ThoughtsSadyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12163678207182481274noreply@blogger.comBlogger95125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-67269329286905511222009-08-12T09:13:36.101-07:002009-08-12T09:13:36.101-07:00thank you so much for writing this piece... I thou...thank you so much for writing this piece... I thourughly enjoyed it, as well as <br /><br />"Sady said...<br /> Awww, Kelly. I'm sorry. Let's get drinks tomorrow night and I can tell you why everything you love is wrong."<br /><br />Made my days (I'm so busy it took me two days to get through it.)Alicia-Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04318557962659228977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-37258102024662867372009-08-05T18:58:15.141-07:002009-08-05T18:58:15.141-07:00Oh, and "Ted" is a truly wonderful episo...Oh, and "Ted" is a truly wonderful episode. I really don't get why people don't like it. It's suspenseful, emotional and John Ritter is excellent.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-9854637964474612362009-08-05T11:24:57.672-07:002009-08-05T11:24:57.672-07:00"Many dedicated Buffy fans hate this season i..."Many dedicated Buffy fans hate this season in part because it blurred the line between fantasy "kick-ass female empowerment through magic" and the reality of violence against women."--Anonymous<br /><br />Not to argue, but I've never seen anyone imply that this was their reason for hating Season 6. Most of the reasons I've seen, and which I agree with, have to do with the general weakening of every single character's integrity, established traits, and relationships. Warren was interesting, but having Buffy do basically nothing to fight him all season, when in Season 2 it took her all of 45 minutes to capture a similar trio of evil science geeks, was not. I don't need Buffy to be perfect--she never was in the first five seasons, which contained plenty of darkness, but it was balanced out by moments of real character strength and humor. That was why people fell in love with the show and it's characters, and the absence of those redeeming qualities in Seasons 6 and 7 are what destroyed the show. Buffy, Willow, and Giles are not strong characters in those two seasons. They are depressing jerks who behave in horrible, stupid and outrageous ways. Which would be fine if "Buffy" had started out as a show like "Dollhouse," but it didn't. It also would have helped if there was some semblance of continuity, but Magic!Crack and the Ubervamps prety much shot that to hell.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-69869266466775189542009-06-29T08:55:23.118-07:002009-06-29T08:55:23.118-07:00I loved what you had to say about Buffy. I too am ...I loved what you had to say about Buffy. I too am the PERFECT audience for Buffy, and while I enjoyed it, I have a lot of misgivings, and you've articulated exactly what my misgivings are. And as a side note, for me, too, "Ted" was the episode that resonated most directly to me. From things others have said, it seems that the reason it's not liked very much is that it's just so unrealistic; Ted's behavior for the first 2/3 of the episode were too cartoonish for belief. But actually, Ted's behavior was so akin to the behavior of a certain step-parent of mine, and Joyce's behavior was so like a certain parent of mine (and equally improbable and unlikely), that it felt entirely too realistic and relatively subtle for me. I used to think the potential step-mothers in The Sound of Music and The Parent Trap (the original) were pretty cartoonishly evil... until I came into contact with step-parents exactly like that.Bethany Grenaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895238245204820604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-63944908318592273932009-06-18T05:40:28.673-07:002009-06-18T05:40:28.673-07:00I liked Buffy. But it wasn't art. Sure, it h...I liked Buffy. But it wasn't art. Sure, it had Themes, but...<br /><br />I feel like Dollhouse might qualify as art. It's self reflective. It's complex. It comments on the context in which it was created.<br /><br />I like what you articulated about Topher. I couldn't work out why I liked him so much. I think that's why.<br /><br />I'm only up to episode 10. The Melly/Paul dynamic in that is killing me. The bit where he knows that's not her, but it's her, but he can't tell her anything, but he loves her, but he knows she's not real... gah! The layers!<br /><br />I like that none of the characters are perfect. None of them are safe on the moral high ground. They are all real in a way Whedon's other characters haven't been able to be, because they swim in a world where there is no solid ground to be safe and Right on. Every choice has varying degrees of Right and Wrong mixed in. Welcome to the real world!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-45231548238740013542009-05-18T09:05:00.000-07:002009-05-18T09:05:00.000-07:00Maybe even in that state she is asserting agency?Maybe even in that state she is asserting agency?whatsernamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15731411057968563416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-66676966665728013382009-05-17T14:18:00.000-07:002009-05-17T14:18:00.000-07:00Hi there! I just found your blog yesterday (from a...Hi there! I just found your blog yesterday (from a link at one feminist blog or another) and am loving it. Thanks for this thoughtful post. I've been watching Dollhouse and having some major issues with it, but you've made me reconsider a bit. There are still some things I can't get over, though. To give an example, at the end of "Man on the Street," Echo in blank-slate mode appears to request to go back and finish her engagement with Mynor -- which is to say, she asks to be raped. It's been explicitly said earlier that having a sympathetic reason for being a predator doesn't make Mynor any less of a predator. But you know what does? Having his victim ask to be preyed upon! It just felt like a huge misstep, one that severely weakened the point that the show does generally seem to be trying to make -- that people are abused by people, not by monsters, and that sometimes abusers are sympathetic too, but that doesn't mean the abuse is justified. Likewise with the end of the last episode, when Echo/Caroline appears to have come back to the Dollhouse voluntarily, even though she had convinced herself not to do so a few minutes before. I just don't know how to read those kinds of things as anything other than diminishing the severity of the abuse.<br /><br />Anyway, sorry for the long comment. If anyone has another reading of this stuff, I'd be happy to hear it.thedrymocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-36502743635813467392009-05-16T10:17:00.000-07:002009-05-16T10:17:00.000-07:00Dewitt certainly sexualized Victor.Dewitt certainly sexualized Victor.whatsernamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15731411057968563416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-31148678183684350502009-05-15T15:15:00.000-07:002009-05-15T15:15:00.000-07:00I was thinking about this very issue, and found yo...I was thinking about this very issue, and found your blog via google. <br /><br />here's my problem with the feminism, such as it is, in this show;<br /><br />The male dolls are not sexualised the way the females are.<br /><br />And that's huge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-63801756134205201182009-05-15T00:03:00.000-07:002009-05-15T00:03:00.000-07:00i am here from I Blame The Patriarchy (there was a...i am here from I Blame The Patriarchy (there was a discussion on human trafficking, and i threw in a blurb about Dollhouse and how it explores human trafficking, and a commenter gave me the link here. and i am hook! i love your blog)<br /><br />Dollhouse, for me, like most every other show i watch, was forced upon me by my best friend. i Do Not Watch TV. it tends to hurt my brain, and it pisses me off to no end.<br /><br />but best friend is finally leaving her horribly and abusive husband and she wanted me to hang out with her more, and wanted to watch this show, and so it became yet another ritual.<br /><br />there are so many things i want to about! best friend is not at all a feminist (although, i have not given up on my "subversive corruption" as her rigidly fundamentalist mother calls it) so i don't really have anyone to discuss themes with.<br /><br />right now, i am still (*still!*) is shock from seeing WASH acting like a psycho-sociopath. and all the weirdness that revolved around that ("oh, you saved her". not "oh, you saved *me*"...)<br /><br />i am still absolutely in love with that fact that there is a woman on the TV who *looks* like me and is allowed to be the hot girl who likes AND gets to have sex (November/Melly). i swear i almost fainted when she first appeared, and was allowed to be attractive, and wasn't portrayed as just a "lazy fat slob" like pretty much every other woman of average normal healthy weight is. (Marilyn Monroe - 5'3" and 150 pounds. i am 5'8" and called fat at 150 pounds. the f*ck?).<br />the episode "Man on the Street" - people *really* think like that in real life!<br /><br />the social commentary, in every episode, is mind blowing. the fact that there are more Dollhouses is frightening. what happened to Sierra, vs what happened to Victor. the whole bit with the ressurected dead woman (and, btw, who the *hell* would actually have enough integrity to give up life again without *any* sort of struggle?! just, wow...) yes, there are problems, not everything gells perfectly, and the bits we see of Caroline's past really... i mean, she was a *very* left wing liberal activist, very feminist, very PETA - we are missing the link, between her perfect post-collegial career (with the apparent perfect boyfriend, job and apartment) and her signing the Dollhouse contract - and i want to see that, see what actually messed all of that up *so much* that a person with those specific world-views would submit to something that is essentially the opposite of everything she believes in.<br /><br />just a note: if i have the timeline correct, Echo is the *oldest* doll currently, at least in her "pod" (or whatever you call the groups). many, many other dolls were killed by Alpha, and i'm pretty sure the implication there was that Echo was the only one left (again, at least of her pod)<br />the history of Dr. Saunders - beautiful. and, for those of you who agree with Sady that Topher = Joss, her line about "i don't understand why you made me hate you" pretty much seals the deal for me. she is the epitome of both the best and the worst the Dollhouse can do. the absolute *GREY* of everything just highlights how these tech capabilities could have positive implications and applications, but are (apparantly, there are hints that there is even *MORE*) squandered, demeaned, right alone with the people, persons and personalities that have become dolls.<br /><br />i hope you *did* post more - i am off to poke around the site! thank you!denelianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08083149213773118359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-90772607621019683842009-05-12T06:34:00.000-07:002009-05-12T06:34:00.000-07:00Neat essay. But to echo what Rachel said about Buf...Neat essay. But to echo what Rachel said about Buffy Season 6: "the Warren storyline is one of the best ever, as a young misogynist dick turns out to be way more repulsive, and dangerous, than the worst demon." That is spot on, and clearly Whedon's own panacea for the whole magic theme, as he has a psycopathic misogynist use an actual gun to murder a main character. Many dedicated Buffy fans hate this season in part because it blurred the line between fantasy "kick ass female empowerment through magic" and the reality of true violence against women. <br /><br />If you want to understand the genesis of the Dollhouse, you need only look up the character of Warren, who builds his version of "perfect" robot sex slave and later constructs a robotic model of Buffy for Spike to repeatedly abuse. Lifelike, these robots can be imprinted with whatever personality is desired, reflecting Warren (and Spike's) deep-seated hatred of women. Warren actually kills another female character during an attempted rape. If you substitute "actives" for robots in these scenarios, and you've basically got the Dollhouse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-12996281614312857802009-05-11T15:09:00.000-07:002009-05-11T15:09:00.000-07:00Sady, you should totally revisit Dollhouse now tha...Sady, you should totally revisit Dollhouse now that the season is over. The last episode is especially interesting in terms of your take on Topher.Sagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04259090314712198514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-5830179126241929912009-05-10T20:23:00.000-07:002009-05-10T20:23:00.000-07:00This post is not only excellent, but the comments ...This post is not only excellent, but the comments are, too. One anonymous commenter (lol you are dumb) was rude. Every other comment was on topic and relevant. Disagreements did not devolve into attacks.<br /><br />Very high signal to noise ratio. :-)<br /><br /><br />Shelly: What are girls _without_ superpowers supposed to do? Besides be afraid and die?<br /><br />Cordelia: no super powers, no fear.<br />Anya: once human, no super powers, much courage.<br />Joyce hits Spike over the head with a fire axe.<br />The potentials: courage galore.Bill Michtomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16974095082614091559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-5655252129525432172009-05-09T21:37:00.000-07:002009-05-09T21:37:00.000-07:00@ palinode
"I'm convinced that Whedon contains in...@ palinode<br /><br />"I'm convinced that Whedon contains inside him the mind of a dirty old man, running as if on a virtual machine, which he can examine and take notes on."<br /><br />Isn't that just part of being a writer? Compare, for example, Nabokov...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-79174406406855786112009-05-09T19:12:00.000-07:002009-05-09T19:12:00.000-07:00"If you have to work this hard to explain the conc...<I>"If you have to work this hard to explain the concept of the show, it ain't working. Not saying that TV shows should be simplistic, but it's like explaining a joke--the show should work on its own without long, tortured explanations from Joss and his fans."</I>Because literary criticism has never been valid or important or anything....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-16117056967192545532009-05-09T00:37:00.000-07:002009-05-09T00:37:00.000-07:00I love what you said about Dollhouse (esp. the cre...I love what you said about Dollhouse (esp. the creepy guy in the van part, and your wonderful deconstruction of the Topher character). But I gotta chime in with lots of others and disagree with you about Buffy. <br />Buffy is not strong because she has supernatural powers. There are lots of slayers, blah, blah, and all of them died young. The past slayers were failures, even if they had supernatural powers. The reason Buffy is so special is because she draws on her own strength during tough situations, many of which are not supernatural. Her mom's death, having to make a living, trying to escape an abusive boyfriend--those were the toughest things that happened to Buffy. They weren't metaphors. Dollhouse could connect to people better if it included more situations that people can identify with (like the episode where Echo plays the part of the nurse/wife being surprised by her first home). Buffy was able to hit more empathetic notes sooner because of its premise. If Dollhouse can get there, its ratings will jump.<br /> Yeah, Buffy's simplistic at times. But so is Dollhouse. These are TV shows. The only perfect TV show that has ever existed is Firefly. We can't compare all shows to that standard!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-8501645124018896812009-05-08T14:40:00.000-07:002009-05-08T14:40:00.000-07:00If you have to work this hard to explain the conce...If you have to work this hard to explain the concept of the show, it ain't working. Not saying that TV shows should be simplistic, but it's like explaining a joke--the show should work on its own without long, tortured explanations from Joss and his fans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-77387317755168944262009-05-07T17:42:00.000-07:002009-05-07T17:42:00.000-07:00Oh my God. That was an amazing essay. I, however...Oh my God. That was an amazing essay. I, however did love Buffy but I understand where you're coming from. What you have to get is that Buffy was marketed to a much larger audience and specifically geared towards a younger crowd in their teens. This "younger crowd" needed more obvious/broadly drawn characters and plots in order to understand the issues that Joss was trying to put out there on the table (i.e. love, sex, friendship, feminism, drinking, rape, drug addiction, etc.). And I thought he did a wonderful job. Dollhouse is the show set up for that same "younger crowd" now all grown up and ready for a more nuanced and layered drama. It tackles the same issues as Buffy but in a more unexpected way with all the great story-telling we have come to expect from Joss Whedon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-86118682951508130162009-05-07T13:34:00.000-07:002009-05-07T13:34:00.000-07:00Great essay, thanks.
I've been really confused at...Great essay, thanks.<br /><br />I've been really confused at some of the reactions to this show since the first few episodes. I've seen questions like "how am I supposed to root for this Dollhouse place" and "the premise is just so sexist and awful". Do people not understand a dystopia when they see one? Do schoolkids not read 1984 and Brave New World anymore? When I heard the premise months before the premier, I thought it was bleedin' obvious that this was some kind of dystopian story, and I'm assuming that it will climax in some kind of confrontation with Big Brother. And Big Brother's purposes and impact on the world will probably not be purely evil either (much like we saw with Wolfram and Hart, which also had some sympathetic employees).<br /><br />I'm having some trouble fathoming shy so many people would just expect that all the villians will be obvious warty, cackling maniacs, and all the heroes will be sweetness and light. Even comic books don't work that way anymore.<br /><br />Maybe I'm watching a totally different show than some of these reviewers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-72193866328302039282009-05-07T12:33:00.000-07:002009-05-07T12:33:00.000-07:00Wonderful essay. I'll be linking from my blog, so ...Wonderful essay. I'll be linking from my blog, so hopefully more eyes will see this excellent piece of writing. I've been reviewing the show over at my blog (http://open.salon.com/blog/mad_typist), and I was shocked at how many comments I got on my posts from people condemning Joss, labeling the show sexist, and so forth. <br /><br />Because of the themes you list above, I feel like Boyd is one of the most compelling characters on the show, since he's the most morally aware person (see his line about "pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way" in episode9), while at the same time, he's one of the people most complicit in keeping Echo in bondage.Mad Typisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03938247139643974334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-72227573380684335082009-05-07T11:52:00.000-07:002009-05-07T11:52:00.000-07:00Great essay. I really loathe the show and think th...Great essay. I really loathe the show and think that the bad acting cannot be overcome, but this was a great essay, none the less :)pat1755https://www.blogger.com/profile/16126751535965795233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-59379958171925834962009-05-05T11:41:00.000-07:002009-05-05T11:41:00.000-07:00I quoted (and linked to you) over at my post:
htt...I quoted (and linked to you) over at my post:<br /><br />http://theboozetube.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/we-have-to-rape-this-village-to-save-it/<br /><br />If I were a real blogger I'd learn how to do a trackback...Gnatalbyhttp://theboozetube.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-24313178671756212422009-05-05T09:46:00.000-07:002009-05-05T09:46:00.000-07:00@Jennifer
And he has a woman of color on his writ...@Jennifer<br /><br />And he has a woman of color on his writing staff. Pretty sure that's a first too.whatsernamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15731411057968563416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-34520990978710585612009-05-05T06:04:00.000-07:002009-05-05T06:04:00.000-07:00Flipping fantastic analysis of Dollhouse. (But I l...Flipping fantastic analysis of Dollhouse. (But I love Buffy.)Gnatalbyhttp://theboozetube.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726951603608379154.post-67068516135350692072009-05-05T04:34:00.000-07:002009-05-05T04:34:00.000-07:00Thanks for the great post, and the great blog in g...Thanks for the great post, and the great blog in general.<br /><br />I've been thinking about Joss and Feminism and Dollhouse and why Dollhouse is different but still within the Whedon ouevre, and then I got hit over the head by an anvil with one idea this might be different: A woman is the co-creator of the show.Jennifer Peepashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780652215019606194noreply@blogger.com